Episode Description
In this insightful conversation with Jessica Bednarz, Director of Legal Services and the Profession at IAALS (Institute for the Advancement of the American Legal System), we explore emerging trends reshaping the legal profession. Jessica shares her perspective on new categories of legal service providers, innovative nonprofit law firm models, and the ongoing debate around AI regulation in legal services. We discuss how these changes might affect solo practitioners while uncovering opportunities for lawyers to adapt and thrive in this evolving landscape. Whether you’re curious about the future of legal practice or passionate about making legal services more accessible, this episode offers valuable insights into where the profession is headed.
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Episode Resources
How to Start a NonProfit Law Firm by Mark Atkinson
Episode Transcript
JESS: [00:00:00] Can technology practice law? Can, can there be a product, a technology based product that delivers legal advice? Is that considered to be the practice of law?
LAUREN: Welcome to a different practice. I’m your host, Lauren Lester, and I’m passionate about helping solo attorneys build thriving practices. After starting my own solo firm straight out of law school.
I’m here to share the tools and strategies that made it possible. Think of this as grabbing coffee with your work bestie while learning everything they didn’t teach you about running a business in law school. Pull up a seat and get ready to build a different practice. Hey everyone, thanks for joining me on another episode of A Different Practice.
Today I’m thrilled to welcome back a familiar voice to the show, Jessica Bednarz, who previously served as my co host and is now doing incredible work as the director of legal services and the profession at large. I’ll just brings a wealth of [00:01:00] experience to our conversation today, having spent years tackling access to justice issues at the Chicago bar foundation, where she oversaw their legal incubator program and helped launch a similar initiative in Colorado.
Her background includes private practice as a family law attorney, both as a solo practitioner and associate, which gives her firsthand insight into the challenges of legal practice. Thank you In this episode, we dive into some fascinating trends that IELTS is seeing in the legal profession, from new categories of legal service providers, to innovative law firm models, and the ongoing discussion around AI regulation.
Jess shares her perspectives on how these changes might also affect solo and small firm practitioners, while offering insight into opportunities for lawyers to adapt and thrive in this evolving landscape. Whether you’re a solo curious about the future of legal practice or someone interested in making legal services more accessible to everyday folks, this conversation offers valuable insights into where the profession is headed.
Let’s jump [00:02:00] in. I think you’re the first person that I get to say this to, but welcome back, Jess. Hello. Thank you. That’s
JESS: awesome.
LAUREN: It’s so great to be back. So for some listeners, this may be a familiar voice. Jess was my cohost for a brief stint there and I dearly miss her, but she’s doing some amazing work at Isle.
So I wanted to have her come on as we kind of wrap up the show for the end of the year. And have her just talk about what she’s seen in her work and what trends are out there in the legal profession. What are some innovations that are maybe happening? What are some changes, regulatory reform, anything like that, that aisles has kind of got its pulse on.
So I think this is always interesting for us, even as solo and small firm practitioners to know what’s going on in the general profession and where are things moving. Some of these are probably going to be good for us. Some of them are maybe just. things to watch out for that we may need to be aware of.
Maybe our practices might need to shift or we might have an opportunity [00:03:00] to go into a different market or something, but it’s always good to kind of keep our eye on to what’s going on in the profession as a whole. So can you start us off, Jess, with anyone who might be unfamiliar with IELTS? I will let you say what that lovely acronym stands for and what you do there.
Well, great work y’all do. What does IELTS do and how do you help move? the profession forward.
JESS: Yeah, thanks, Lauren. That was gonna be my exact starting point. What in the heck is IALS? That’s I A A L S. We are the Institute for the Advancement of the American Legal System at the University of Denver. We are a national independent research organization that innovates and advances solutions that make the civil justice system more just.
And to put a little more context around that, we work across the entire civil justice system. We do have five focus areas which are work with the courts the judiciary, family justice, legal education, and then the focus area that I’m most involved [00:04:00] with, with it, which is the delivery of legal services in the profession.
And I can talk about that here in a second, but like I said, we are a research organization. So research is a big part of our projects. We are also very much a convener So we’re oftentimes bringing leaders from across the country with different perspectives together to problem solve around a certain issue.
So I would say those two things are really our bread and butter coming back to me. I’ve been with aisles about a year and a half. Actually, we’re coming up on my two year anniversary here in January. Prior to that, I spent a lot of time working in the access to justice space. And. Chicago but at piles, I’m the director of legal services and the profession, and I have two, I would say big buckets of work right now.
And we’re going to actually be talking about some of these things here in a bit, but the two buckets of work really are regulatory reform, which is kind of thinking about, or rethinking the unauthorized practice of law rules, or rules of professional conduct, just any rules within the legal profession that [00:05:00] might keep.
Other providers and models from being able to also offer legal services. And then the other bucket of work really is focused on. The way that we classify it is focused on serving the middle class. So just serving everyday people who don’t qualify for free legal aid, but don’t make enough money to pay hundreds of dollars an hour for a lawyer.
So it’s the majority of the population and it’s, it’s probably a group that many of, Your listeners are serving right now. So I’m happy and excited to be talking more about these things
LAUREN: in terms of the, I guess, serve delivery of services to the middle class are kind of everyday folks. What are y’all seeing in that space?
What are the What are the trends that are coming up? What are the movements, maybe, that folks are trying to do to get more of those people served? Because if, if anybody is not aware, the justice gap is not a gap, it is a chasm, it is massive, right? The folks who qualify for legal aid are a very small fraction of our population.
Legal aid does a lot. amazing [00:06:00] work, but they are overburdened. And for most people, being able to afford traditional legal services for tens of thousands of dollars, which it ends up being, although they never get that upfront, it’s just not in their wheelhouse. They don’t have the budget to do that. So there’s a really big part of the population who’s not getting the services that they need.
So the fact that y’all are on this space and helping to push the needle forward and actually get more, get the access to justice gap. Covered more is amazing. But what are y’all seeing is, is working well there. What are the challenges in terms of getting the middle class served better?
JESS: Yeah, that’s a great starting point because I did want to provide kind of that overarching theme and information before we dug into some of the trends because it, they, the trends truly do stem from that fact, the fact that the vast majority of Americans do not have access to affordable legal help.
And so when a lot of people think about the access to justice or the legal services gap, most people, I think [00:07:00] their minds is. Go to low income people, people who qualify for free legal aid, certainly they struggle to access legal services. And we know that, you know, there’s all kinds of interesting research.
The 1st step being, and this is something I think for practitioners to think about for sure is that 50 percent of the people who have legal problems. Don’t know that they’re actually legal in nature. They don’t know that they can come to you and actually solve the problem that they have. So that’s, that’s a, that’s a challenge that every practitioner I think has to really think about and work through.
And I think that looks a little bit different depending on the practice area you are in. From an access to justice perspective, that’s something we have to think about too. Just a couple little more data points and then I’ll answer your question. We know 50 percent of people who make it, who recognize they have a legal issue and qualify for free legal aid and make it to those, I guess, quote unquote, doors these days.
It’s not an actual door a lot of times, but sometimes it still is. They’re turned away because there’s not enough. capacity to serve everyone who qualifies for it. And then when we get above that income eligibility [00:08:00] line, by and large, there’s not a lot of resources that are being dedicated to helping lawyers and others who are trying to connect with those folks and get affordable legal services to them.
So I think maybe we’ll talk at the end about an initiative we just launched called the Above the Line Network. And how any of the listeners might, if they’re interested in joining, talk more about that. We would love to have you but kind of just talk to now jump into some of the trends. So the first trend has to do with allowing new providers into the profession.
And so just talked about, and you just talked about how that need is so It’s so great. There’s just so many people who need access to legal services. A lot of those people do have some money to pay for legal services. We just need to find ways to connect with them and, you know, kind of looking at the medical space and how the medical profession has chosen or thought about really trying to serve the full spectrum of folks and really prioritize their most precious [00:09:00] resources.
We have doctors. We’ve done. We have nurse practitioners, we then have nurses, we then have medical technicians, all of them received certain types of training and are allowed to do certain things. And I would say you know, in that scale, doctors are probably the most precious resource and that they have the most knowledge, the most skill, but you know, we only have a certain number of them, right.
And the need is so great. And that’s the reason that we’ve developed all those other categories of providers. And so the thinking is in the legal profession. There is opportunity to do something in space to do something very similar. You know, we want to keep lawyers. For sure, lawyers serve a really important role, but again, there are only so many of them and not everyone can afford them.
And so what we’re trying to do is introduce new categories of providers that are more at the the nurse practitioner or nurse level, and then there’s another category that’s more at, like, the medical technician level. So. That is something we’re seeing and, [00:10:00] you know, similar to the medical profession, just what I talked about, you know, these new categories.
providers in the legal profession, they would also receive training depending on, you know, which category they are. They have to take an exam that’s very similar to the bar exam called like a mini bar exam, or, you know, maybe it’s a little more like a certification if they’re more like that medical technician level.
So they are all receiving that training. It’s usually more focused than lawyers. It’s not, you know, once they have this certification, they can just provide any service to anyone. It’s, it’s, it’s much the scope is much narrower. But that’s a trend that we’re seeing largely in response to COVID.
Response to that legal services gap. You know, we wanna continue to help and support lawyers, but recognizing, you know, we have this gap and we need to expand our strategy. So that’s something we’re starting to see. We’re seeing, starting to see several states that are either exploring those programs or they’ve launched those programs including here in Colorado, which I know you’re familiar.
LAUREN: What do you foresee in this approach, the role of [00:11:00] attorneys being, like what type of work would they do, would it really, I don’t want to say really narrow, but I wonder if it would limit the types of tasks or cases maybe that attorneys are doing, so what do y’all foresee in that, I like that analogy with the medical profession, if we’re on the sort of top of the tier in terms of education and expertise as doctors are, Right, the doctors are performing the very intense brain surgery, right?
We’re not giving that to a medical technician, so What is the similarity on the legal side? Like, what do y’all see lawyers then doing or being responsible for?
JESS: I think lawyers will continue to work on the most complex cases. You know, you can, you can certainly in every practice area, imagine a spectrum of complexity, right?
And so I think we would see these folks definitely handling less complex matters, you know, not all the way at the bottom of that scale. I think they would probably make it. halfway up, maybe a little further, but [00:12:00] probably not at the, at the top where you really do need that legal training and that experience, I think, to work through those issues.
I see lawyers playing a really big role there. I can also see and we’ve seen this in Colorado. So the, the program that we’ve launched here in Colorado just launched back in June and we’re seeing law firms. hire, or, you know, these folks were already paralegals and they went and got the certification and they came back to the law firm.
And so we’re seeing these individuals work within law firms too. So they’re working with lawyers. And so that could be a way for a lawyer to, to really expand their existing practice. Perhaps they’re not currently serving that part of the market, or maybe they want to serve even a bigger part of the market, but they haven’t just really figured out cost wise how to do that.
I mean, the idea, at least one of the ideas with some of these categories of providers. is that they’re having to spend less money to get this education and the barriers to entry are a little bit lower. And so ultimately hopefully the cost for them to deliver the services is lower. And so, [00:13:00] you know, you could see lawyers, if they wanted to hiring these folks and working in partnership with them to deliver more services to more people.
LAUREN: I’m very curious to see how it all goes. And we’ve had lots of discussions. I think that it is needed. I. appreciate the ingenuity and the, the attempt of like, let’s try this because otherwise we just talk in circles and nothing ever gets done and nothing ever changes. But for folks like me or who are trying to serve the middle class, I’m curious to see how it will affect our Businesses, if at all, like maybe it will just be a different part of the market.
But part of me also thinks, well, I offer, you know, flat fee affordable services. So if somebody is going to come along, but that’s, you know, part of capitalism and part of the market. So it’s just, it’s interesting to me to see what the effect will be and sort of how lawyers will shift in response to it.
But the ultimate goal is more people need to get services. So. Lawyers have done a crappy job over the last several decades. So I’m not, I get why other people are coming along and going, [00:14:00] let’s try something else because they’ve refused to do anything differently. But for those of us who maybe have, it also feels like we’re trying, I swear.
JESS: I know I totally feel for you. And you know, we’ve had these conversations many times and, you know, I would love to see all lawyers. I am here for it, if I can help in that way or continue to help in that way, that’s I want to, but we just haven’t seen that response, unfortunately, and we’re going to keep trying like it’s not like we’ve just given up on this and now we’re turning to this, it’s just now we need to be trying some other things at the same time, and I really don’t think these providers will be taking work from a lot of lawyers.
I think they’re going to be taking work that, you know, isn’t currently going to lawyers, but it would be interesting to see if this inspires more lawyers to adopt more practices that you currently have in your practice and have been talking a lot about. Like, that would also be a great outcome. So yeah, we’ll just kind of have to see.
These programs are still [00:15:00] relatively new. I think, well, the oldest one, the first one was launched in Washington back in 2014, I want to say. And That program there was subsequently sunsetted, not because of the effectiveness of the program for some other reasons, but those limited licensed legal technicians, they were able to continue.
And so we have some data from there. But otherwise a lot of these programs are still relatively new. And so we’ll just kind of have to see how they go.
LAUREN: It’s definitely something to watch for, especially our solo practitioners. Keep an eye on this one and see if maybe it inspires you to have some ingenuity or innovation in your own practice.
It’ll be something to watch.
What else you got in terms of what should we be looking out
JESS: for? Okay, so the second one I have on here, Lauren, I know you’re aware of because you just had someone at least somewhat recently on to talk about it, which is the idea of a nonprofit or a sliding scale law firm. You know, this approach is not for everyone.
But I, I like the idea that it’s getting more visibility [00:16:00] because I do think it’s a really good fit for at least some lawyers. And this is not a new idea that has popped up in the last year, but we’re definitely, I think starting to see some more interest, or at least I’ve started to see some more interest in the past year in this particular model.
And you could have a for profit sliding scale law firm too. So I guess we’re kind of talking about a couple of different models here, but I think I’m going to primarily talk about the nonprofit sliding scale, because I think that’s what we see more. And so it’s, it’s exactly that you’re setting up your business entity as a nonprofit.
And what I found is that the firms that do exist. Most of them really are trying to target people who are right around that income eligibility line. So they do serve some people who qualify for free legal aid. They do serve people who do not qualify for free legal aid. So that’s where kind of that sliding scale comes in.
Most of them are not solely sustainable through fees. They are usually having to get some additional funding from other sources, like non profits, other non profits. But there are some benefits to [00:17:00] it. The fundraising part is not a benefit. I don’t think most people like fundraising. So I just want to put that out there.
Like, thankfully there are some people in the world who do enjoy fundraising. That’s good because we need those at nonprofits, but most people don’t. So I just do want to flag that for folks. thinking about this option. There is a fundraising component to it. It can be time consuming. There’s also a board component to it because you are setting up a non profit and so you are going to have to have a board.
You know, I’m sure that there are different levels of formality with respect to that, but like that is an element that you have to think about too if you’re thinking about this model. But one of the big pros is, or a couple pros, one is you qualify for Loan forgiveness. So I think that’s really attractive to a lot of folks.
You know, you could have your federal loans forgiven after 10 years, assuming nothing changes, which might be a big assumption right now, but you know, that’s out there and I do know people who have actually qualified and have their loans forgiven. So that’s a big pro. And I think the other one, and maybe even the bigger one that everyone I know who have these firms cite is really just the [00:18:00] purpose driven nature of it.
And that’s. Certainly not to say that you can’t have a for profit law firm that is purpose driven. I 100 percent believe that you can but in this model, I think they really are, like I said, trying to serve people who are right around the income eligibility line are really hard to serve in a profitable way.
So we kind of see these nonprofits, Lighting Skill law firms as a key model if we’re thinking about an ecosystem of models and providers in order to serve the full spectrum. I think they play a really important part. Because it’s like I said, you can’t it’s very difficult to profitably serve people right around that area.
And so this is a model where you can bring in some fees, you’re gonna have to bring in some additional funding as well. But at least these are services that are targeting that group, but it’s not currently being served.
LAUREN: We actually had two episodes, I realized, chatting with some non profit attorneys. So if anyone is curious, those are episode way back on episode 12 with Amanda Carey.
She talked about her experience and why [00:19:00] she set up a non profit law firm. And then more recently, We also had episode 42 with Phil Telfian, who runs a nonprofit out of DC, I believe. And that was such a fantastic conversation with him. But he really does speak a lot to that kind of mission driven work and being able to really feel like his purpose is being fulfilled.
And it makes for a really nice kind of work life blend, at least in his case. So if you’re. Interested in hearing some real world examples, check out those two episodes. They’re both really wonderful folks who have dove full force into nonprofit law firms and are making them work. They’re, they’re really successful.
And like I said, you know, not the model
JESS: for everyone, but certainly a model for some folks. And it’s just nice to talk more about it and just let people know that that type of model exists.
LAUREN: Does IELTS know of or are they helping curate any resources for folks who want to start non profit law firms like the board requirement and the tax status?
I mean there’s, like you said, [00:20:00] a little bit more that goes into it than starting a for profit business. Do you have any resources for folks who are interested or want to learn more that they can go check out?
JESS: Yes. So the short answer is yes, we are currently doing that. And there are some existing resources too.
So I will say an existing resource is I can’t remember the name of it. I think it’s how to build a nonprofit law firm. I think that is the name of it. The author is Mark Atkinson. He is someone who runs a legal incubator program out of North Carolina. And so that’s a really good starting point for folks.
I think it’s like 10. You can find it online. So I would start there. I will say through the Above the Line Network. It’s an initiative that IELTS has launched in partnership with the Chicago Bar Foundation, which is where I actually used to work before I worked at IELTS. And it’s really a community of leaders from across the country and Canada who are working together.
To transform the delivery of legal services to the underserved middle class. And it’s really from all perspectives. So leaders are [00:21:00] lawyers, legal educators, technologists, people offering for profit firms, nonprofit firms, judges. Judges, yes, the courts, just anyone, anyone who is trying to help people who are above that income eligibility line for free legal aid.
Like we are trying to bring people together and we’re trying to build a community. We’re trying to create resources and we’re working on a resource hub right now that’s specific to this. So certainly that nonprofit law firm toolkit will be on there. We do think in addition to the existing toolkit, there are some other things we can build out around it.
That would be really helpful for nonprofit law firms. So stay tuned on that. We’ve definitely been talking about it. There’ll be more to come. So yeah, definitely building out resources for that and just building out resources more generally for practitioners who just want to serve everyday people. So, you know the pricing toolkit that you and I worked on together, that will certainly be there.
A lot of things. I think that would be really helpful to a lot of your listeners.
LAUREN: We will link everything that we’re talking about in the show notes, but [00:22:00] particularly the above the line network. I invite anyone to join. It is free to join. You just have to make sure that you align with the mission of what the network is all about, which I would venture to guess that most listeners are going to be squarely within that space but it really is a good community to connect with.
Get a part of it’s a lot of really innovative fingers. I’ve really enjoyed in the meetings, just getting all of the different perspectives, like Jess said, this isn’t just a bunch of practitioners necessarily, but there are folks who aren’t practitioners at all, but are doing phenomenal work across the country and just kind of hearing how they approach serving people, what has worked for them, what hasn’t worked for them.
We really all can learn from each other and not only grow our for profit businesses, but also potentially be able to help other people. Other members of our legal profession in a wider sense to be able to serve more people, which at the end of the day, is that not what we’re here to do as a profession, right?
We’re supposed to has historically been right. And one of the noble [00:23:00] professions, we got to get back to that a little bit. So I encourage anyone to join and I’ll put the link in the show notes.
JESS: Yeah, and fun fact, Lauren is on our advisory committee for this initiative, so, you know, we’re in good hands.
You’re in good hands. I got an inside scoop. I’m saying this from experience, I swear. Yeah, totally. And I do find that people really do want to help people. It’s just sometimes trying to figure out how to do that.
LAUREN: It’s really nuanced. It’s a really tricky issue. I, I mean, part of me wanted to say, like, if we could have figured it out by now, we would have.
And I think there’s some truth to that. I think lawyers have liked the position that we are in. We like to be self regulated. We have created a market that’s not a real, true sort of thing. Mark it out in any other industry. And I think there’s a lot of folks who like it that way because it leaves us, you know, with all the control and the power and the ability to make a lot of money.
But when we go back to where did this profession start and what is our true purpose? It, it really has [00:24:00] misaligned the way that we have created. The business structure has really gotten away from that. And so I, I’m always happy and so glad that I started this initiative is we’ve got to get back to what is our real purpose and we all need to have jobs and be able to food on our own tables.
But how it’s been working hasn’t been working. And but there’s a lot of nuance to it. And it’s there’s not one easy solution.
JESS: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So if you’re, you’re interested in having those discussions, do you join us?
Should I move on to the third trend? Yeah,
LAUREN: let’s get the next one.
JESS: I’m really curious to hear your thoughts on this and certainly your listeners thoughts. Which is whether to regulate AI and the delivery of legal services, especially consumer facing legal services. Should that be something that the legal profession regulates?
And if yes, how do we do that? This was the onset of chat GPT and passing the bar exam when people finally started to take notice. Oh, wow. This [00:25:00] is, this is a thing. It’s a big thing. What should we do with it? We’ve seen some task forces pop up across the country, and it seems to be, there’s kind of a, not a split, but two different things to figure out, I will say, and a lot of the task forces right now are very much focused on this first one, which is as lawyers.
What is our duty with respect to using AI? You know, where did the rules of professional conduct come in? What am I responsible for doing as I’m using it? Can I use it in my work? And if so, how, you know, we’re seeing a lot of conversations around that. And it seems like the task forces that are looking at this, at least, I think the majority of them are coming out and basically saying.
Our rules are okay as is, because we do have that, that competency requirement in there already when it comes to technology. And this is, you know, just another form of technology. Maybe it’s a little more challenging to understand the risks involved. So a lot of people, it seems like are, a lot of states are, are kind of leaving their rules as is, and maybe adding in some guidance, ethics, opinions, [00:26:00] etc.
So there’s certainly conversation around that. And I think those are good conversations to continue to have. And I think there’s so much opportunity. And I know, you know, this for lawyers to use AI. And I’m not even just talking about generative AI, you know, just there are different types of AI, a lot of them that lend themselves really well to doing legal work.
So here, I guess I would encourage people to kind of lean into it. You don’t have to use it for everything, at least not right away, right? Like you can, we can talk about some examples. And I think you’ve already have about like very small ways to kind of like dip your toe in the water. And obviously it’s worth noting here that you’re billing by the hour.
Maybe you don’t love it as much. And maybe this is a time to consider moving to a different pricing model. Our billing model, which set fee or value based pricing, which Lauren has talked a ton about. We have a lot of resources on that. But you know, if you’re using that pricing model versus the bill blower, then using AI as your friend.
So we’ve, we’ve been seeing a lot of conversation around that. I would expect we are going to continue to have a lot of conversation around that. I think that’s great. And then kind of [00:27:00] the second part of this more general conversation is, okay, well, what about when it comes to. Creating these consumer facing legal services, can technology practice law?
Can, can there be a product, a technology based product that delivers legal advice, a legal service of some sort that’s built is that considered to be the practice of law and if yes, is that the unauthorized practice law? So there’s, there’s these discussions around that part of it. We’re, we’re not seeing as many task forces pop up around that yet.
I think, because I think it’s the. The more nuanced and tougher conversation. I think we’re going to see a lot more of these to follow, though. So I think a lot of states have chosen, I think, to start with talking about. The rules of professional conduct and lawyer usage. And, and maybe that’s also in part because, you know, we were having incidents where lawyers were using it and it was obvious we needed to be talking about it.
So that’s good. I know. I think it’s good again, that we’re having these conversations, but I do think we’re going to see a lot of States start [00:28:00] moving their focus to this other conversation that some States are having, but not many yet, which is should the legal profession try to regulate this part of the market?
So we’re having a whole convening around this topic where we’re bringing in again, leaders from different perspectives across the country to talk exactly about this. I have to be honest, I have no idea if we will find any consensus. After all of our convenings, we issue a report where we summarize the discussions.
If we’re in a position to offer recommendations or a checklist about things to think through or, you know, whatever additional resources might be helpful, we do. But I think this part’s really interesting, and I don’t know if you have any thoughts on whether the legal profession is best positioned to do this.
Should it be someone else? And, and where lawyers come in here is, so every state has different unauthorized practice of law rules, and at least in some states, they’re pretty restrictive to the point, like, even if lawyers We’re building products using AI, that would be the unauthorized practice of law, which I, I personally, I want [00:29:00] lawyers to be building these tools.
So we definitely need to be having these conversations and it definitely impacts lawyers. I think there’s a lot of opportunity there and I, I just don’t know where we’re gonna land though.
LAUREN: This is really, really interesting. I feel like this is very deep waters because there’s so much to it. I agree with you in my understanding of AI.
If you’re going to build something, it has to be based on some sort of data set or Rules or some sort of algorithm that is put into it and I would want lawyers to do that if what’s being spit out on the other end is any sort of advice that would scare me if, like, anybody on the internet could come out and go, yeah, this is how you should argue, you know, your custody case.
That sounds terrifying, but then the question of, well, but if lawyers do that, is that the unauthorized practice, what does that mean for the profession, I’m probably going to attribute this quote to Wrong. And if somebody knows who actually said it, I heard it on a podcast once, [00:30:00] but I have constantly come back to it when I think about AI, because the big fear is it will take jobs.
Like people will lose jobs because the technology will be able to do it. The same, if not better and quicker than we could do it as humans, and I want to say it was Scott Galloway, but I may be wrong, but the quote was that AI will not take our jobs. The person who knows how to use AI will take your job.
And so that, as you were talking, I thought, how do we position ourselves to be the person who uses AI? And I think within your business, I use it all the time. I don’t use it for legal work, necessarily, but I have toyed around with putting in something I have drafted, like a motion or a pleading I have drafted, and asking it to poke holes in my argument.
I think that’s a great way to use it to be better lawyers, right? Not that I’m handing over the keys to the technology. But it’s certainly in terms of marketing and, you know, help me organize this [00:31:00] crazy thought process I had to something that’s a little bit more cohesive. I think it’s a fantastic tool for that.
But yeah, you’re sort of talking about how does it come into the legal profession and that’s a, that’s a deep pool. I don’t know where that’s going to come out. I’m really curious to hear what y’all hear at this convening because That I don’t, I, I don’t know if we’re going to be able to find a consensus this early.
It’s so new. Still, the technology is so new and it has so many unknowns to it.
JESS: Yeah,
LAUREN: it is new.
JESS: So this is just part one of an ongoing and much longer discussion. And I am curious to what we can come away with. I know it’ll be productive. I just don’t know exactly what. The outcomes will be quite yet, but I do think it’s going to be a really good opportunity to really flesh out all those tension points, the questions that we need to think through.
Hopefully some things maybe we haven’t thought about yet that still need to be thought through. Yeah, and just like, there’s also just a very practical component to it as well. Like even if we think as a profession, [00:32:00] we should be regulating it because we do think technology based services can practice law.
Could we even actually do that? I don’t know. What it probably is going to be in the end is this hybrid approach where I’m guessing we do try to regulate it to some degree, but also recognize that these other things are happening and we should be involved in those spaces too. And so there’s a real opportunity like you were talking about for lawyers to be involved in the creation of these services.
So, I think that’s really cool. And then I will just flag here. In case anyone’s like inspired to create a tech company, what would be really helpful. And what we’re trying to really flag as we have these discussions is that in order to have a profitable company like that, you need to be able to scale.
And so as we are I’m guessing there are going to be some little changes to some degree made in response to this, like we need as best as we can to have some uniformity across the states so that these tech entrepreneurs can actually scale [00:33:00] these products. They can build some really good products, but they need to be able to scale.
And so that’s something we’re talking a lot about too.
LAUREN: Yeah, that would be a nightmare if you, if it was like you could do it in Colorado but not in California and then kind of do it in Vermont. That, yes, that would be very hard to actually implement that in a way that’s going to be most impactful.
I am curious to hear what questions come out of it. I think that’s a great place to start. Because I think the answers, we may never land definitively on anything, but even if we do, it’s going to be for some time. And I would encourage folks, if you are on the fence, like I get sometimes some days I’m super pumped about AI.
And then sometimes we have questions like this. And I’m just like, can we just bury our head in the sand? It’s like too much. Oh my God, how are we going to figure this out? Like there’s so much to it. Are we ever going to figure this out? Or, you know, are we supposed to now create AI? I mean, like my brain, right?
The anxiety of Inside Out 2. She’s at the control board at the moment. I would encourage folks, [00:34:00] and I just had to remind myself as you were talking, Jess, is it is an opportunity, and we have to accept the reality. Like, it is here. It’s not going anywhere. There’s a lot of good that it can do, but it can also cause harm if we ignore it.
Like, if we just say, well, somebody else will figure it out, or this is too big for us to do. It’s too much of a challenge. That’s. That’s really the worst thing that we can do. So even though it feels Difficult and hard and really complex. And I don’t know if we’ll get it right the first 10 times that we try.
It is worth trying because we can’t let somebody else do it. Or some non professional who sort of understands the ins and outs and what we do every day, take control of it.
JESS: Yeah. And I think that really is the mindset for all of these things. We just, we need to try some things out and see how it goes.
And then, you know, we have, we have systems in place. We know what we’re looking for. We’re going to be tracking data, not, not necessarily with the AI stuff at the moment. [00:35:00] I’m sure we will be doing those things, but like thinking about some of the other trends that we talked about. Yeah. So we’re going to be talking about assessing whether or not they’re working and of course, if they’re not, then we’ll move on to another idea, but we can’t just sit around and do nothing that’s likely not the best option and in this situation, so we’ll
LAUREN: see.
What are you most excited about with everything that you’ve kind of got your finger on the pulse of and are watching? Is there anything that really sticks out to you that gets you jazzed? I think the recognition that we’re starting to
JESS: see that. We really do need a lot of different models out there.
Like it’s, we really do need to, it’s more of an ecosystem approach. It’s not like just, it’s not, there’s not one like silver bullet. And I think just the recognition of that and trying to have more people adopt that mindset and just like, Hey, we gotta try some things out here. Maybe they’ll fail, but. But we got to try it.
Right. And so I think we’re starting to see more of that. And that is actually what I get most jazzed about because I don’t know that I have the answer either, but I like the idea that people are open to the ideas of [00:36:00] experimentation. So that’ll get us to the answer. I think a lot faster.
LAUREN: Yeah. And again, if anyone is just as jazz, I will put justice, contact information and ways to connect with her on LinkedIn in the show notes.
So I’m sure. I’ll speak for you, hopefully not out of turn that anybody can reach out cause I think yes, the more voices or thoughts, you know, we need a consensus ecosystem approach here. And so if you are interested in being a part of any of this I’m sure that Jess would love to chat with you and get you involved somehow.
Absolutely. Thank you. So I realized of all the episodes that we did together and all the folks that we asked this question to, I never asked it of you, so I’m super jazzed, speaking of being jazzed, to end the episode asking you the question that I ask all legal professionals who so graciously spend their time with me.
How do you define success?
JESS: Yeah, great question. And actually this is a question, we don’t frame it quite this way, but I feel like this is a [00:37:00] question, like a reoccurring question and conversation that I have in my various friend groups all the time, obviously within the legal profession as well. So for me, It’s pretty, it’s pretty basic.
I think I, I definitely spent the time to think about what I want the future to look like for me kind of long term I’m not that old, but I do think about like, what, what do I want my retirement to look like? And I kind of work backwards and I just kind of check in with myself every so often, I would say like every six months, I feel like holidays maybe for some reason, or like times to check in sometimes sooner.
And I, for me, it’s, it’s like a gut feeling. Like. Am I, am I happy? It just kind of starts with that question. And then the answer is either yes or no, or there could be, you know, improvement there, and then I just kind of continue to ask myself some questions about how I might be able to improve. But for me, it’s just, it’s really that simple.
It’s, it’s being happy, which for me usually looks like doing fulfilling work, having a really great [00:38:00] community of people around me living in an area that I want to be in. And I don’t know, just. Being able to pursue the goals that I want to pursue. And if I, when I check in with myself, if I’m feeling things are going well, then to me, that is success.
Your own internal compass. It really is. Yeah. It’s come down to that. There’s a lot more deeper thinking that, that has come before that for sure. And it would take a long time to talk about it, but like, it’s to the point now where I feel like I’ve thought about it, I’ve developed these really great habits and it’s all kind of come together.
So now it’s the point where I feel like I can be like, all right, how are things feeling and based off of that, I will either continue with, What I’m doing or I’ll make some changes and hopefully get back to that state very soon.
LAUREN: It’s intuition, right? It’s like, what does your gut tell you? Like deep down, sort of in your core, we all have that kind of whisper that every once in a while it’s like, Hmm, this, we don’t like this.
I don’t like this track. I had it and folks have heard the episode sitting in my kid’s hospital [00:39:00] room dealing with an opposing counsel. And that little whisper was more than a whisper at that point, but it was sort of like, This, this isn’t working anymore. So I think it is, it sounds simplistic. You do have to do some work, I think, to get there, but it is a good check in to have, and sometimes it just kind of comes down to, do you feel good?
Do you feel happy? And if not, then you’ve got to be asked some more questions and figure out what it is that’s taking you off course, but it doesn’t have to be anything super complicated. It can just kind of be. Hey, how do I feel today? And I, I like the idea of this. You know, we’re coming to the end of the year here.
Holidays are a great time to do some reflection. So take a moment to just say, ask yourself, you know, do I feel good? Do I feel happy? What would I change? What am I really loving and wish I could do more of? Those are all wonderful questions to ask. Find that internal compass and where you want to go.
JESS: Yeah,
LAUREN: exactly. You said it better than I did. I appreciated the reminder. I was like, you know what, it should be that simple. Thank you so much, Jess, for being a guest now and a co host. You’re going to have all the titles by the end of this, [00:40:00] but I always enjoy spending time with you and hearing about all the amazing work that you and IELTS are doing.
And helping us push the profession forward. So I will link your information in the show notes, but can you just tell folks where the best place to connect with you might be?
JESS: Yeah, for sure. So I’m definitely on LinkedIn and you can email me at Jessica. bednarsatdu. edu. Those are probably the best ways to connect.
And as Lauren said, I’m happy to chat with anyone, so don’t feel bashful on reaching out. And thank you so much to you for letting me come back and chat. It was so much fun. Obviously I always enjoy hanging out with you as well and I enjoy these topics and it’s fun to be back and
LAUREN: I hope everyone enjoyed the episode.
And we’ll have to have you back in six months or a year and do another check in and see, see where things are at. But until then, certainly be sure to follow everything that IELTS is doing. They put out some great newsletters and reports. So if you’re curious about this space that’s a really great resource to connect with.
And until next time. I hope you all have a great rest of your [00:41:00] day. Thanks for joining me on another episode of a different practice. If you found value in today’s conversation, subscribe to my Solo Success Lab newsletter where each week I test and share what actually works in solo practice. Sign up for free@adifferentpractice.com slash subscribe.
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