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Episode Description
In this inspiring episode, Lauren sits down with Phil Telfeyan, founder and executive director of Equal Justice Under Law. Phil shares his unconventional journey from Harvard Law School to founding a nonprofit dedicated to ending inequality in the justice system.
Listeners will gain insight into:
- The challenges and rewards of running a nonprofit law firm
- How to maintain work-life balance in a demanding profession
- Unconventional approaches to disconnecting from technology
- Redefining success as a lawyer beyond just financial metrics
Phil offers a refreshing perspective on finding fulfillment in legal work while making a meaningful impact. His unique lifestyle choices and commitment to integrity both in and out of work provide food for thought for lawyers seeking a different path. No matter where you are in the profession, this episode offers valuable wisdom on creating a sustainable and purpose-driven practice.
Listen now!
Episode Resources
Episode Transcript
PHIL: [00:00:00] And a lot of my classmates from law school who went the more corporate route or joined a big law firm, yes, they’re making higher salaries, but I think even they would say they’re paying for it in a different way.
LAUREN: Welcome to a different practice. I’m your host, Lauren Lester, and I’m obsessed with all things business well being and optimizing the practice of law for solo and small firm lawyers.
I started my solo practice right out of law school, built it from the ground up, and now work part time while earning well over six figures. I’m here to share tangible, concrete tools and resources for ditching the legal profession’s antiquated approach and building a law practice optimized for profit and efficiency.
Think of this as grabbing coffee with your work bestie, mixed with everything they didn’t teach you in law school about running a business. Pull up a seat, grab a cup and get ready to be encouraged and challenged. This is a different practice.
Hey everybody. Welcome to a different practice. I am thrilled to share this [00:01:00] conversation with you today. It was an absolute joy to record. It was one of those conversations that just hit me at the right time. Sometimes feel like that works out so nicely. Maybe if I would have had the conversation six months ago, it still would have been lovely.
But having it at this point in this season in my life really made a great impact. It was a good reminder for me why I got into this profession, why I keep going, why I do the things that I do, and sometimes we just need to be reminded of that. It may be very deep in our core, it may be something that we can articulate very well because we have so resonated with it, but sometimes we get lost.
Like we’re out at sea and the lighthouse that we have focused on for so long, you know, we turn around for a minute and we just can’t find it. And the horizon all looks the same. So this conversation for me was very much. Re seeing that lighthouse, [00:02:00] seeing that light come around and going, Oh, that’s right there it is.
So let me tell you a little bit about who I’m chatting with today. My conversation is with Phil Telthian, the Equal Justice Under Law’s founder and executive director. He began the organization in 2014 with the goal of ending inequality in our justice system. Phil has helped build Equal Justice Under Law into an aggressive agent of legal reform.
Fighting to end America’s money bail system, pushing for an end to the war on drugs, striving to limit excessive collateral consequences of criminal convictions, and advocating on behalf of those experiencing poverty. As an experienced trial and appellate lawyer, Phil directly litigates or supervises much of the organization’s legal work.
Prior to founding Equal Justice Under Law, Phil served as a trial attorney in the Civil Rights Division of the United States. State’s Department of Justice for five years, where he specialized in employment, discrimination and immigration rights, [00:03:00] litigated complex pattern or practice cases on behalf of victims of discrimination and successfully settled the three largest cases in the section’s history.
Before that, he clerked for the Honorable Janice Brown on the U. S. Court of Appeals for the DC circuit. And in case he just wasn’t impressive enough already, Phil earned both a bachelor’s degree and his law degree from Harvard University. During his time there, Phil was a notes editor on the Harvard Law Review, winner of the Williston Contracts Competition and the national champion of the American Bar Association’s National Appellate Advocacy Competition.
Woof. He was born and raised in Sacramento, California, where his parents still live. Phil’s resume is impressive enough, but what I really loved about our conversation and what I so admire in Phil is how he has approached the legal profession. This is a conversation that you’re going to want to listen to through the end.
Phil leaves us with such great nuggets and you can really tell [00:04:00] that he lives and breathes what he says, that what he shares as some practical advice is what he does every day. This is not just. Some quote that he’s pulled up from somewhere or something that he heard from somebody long ago that just sounded really good.
He not only talks the talk, but he walks the walk. In particular, I loved his approach to the idea of integrity and how we look at that through a different lens in the profession than maybe we do in our personal lives. And as you’ll hear me be, you will probably be shocked by what Phil says he doesn’t use in his home.
I hope that this conversation is as energizing to you as it was for me. Before we jump in, a quick note on a new feature that Spotify just launched. If that is where you listen to your podcast, They have just added the ability to comment on individual episodes. So if you have any comments, any additional questions, any thoughts you would just like to share, maybe about something that resonated with you [00:05:00] during an episode, do be sure to jump on to Spotify and leave those comments.
I will absolutely read every single one. respond to all of them that I can and incorporate them into future episodes. And of course, if you love this episode, be sure to share it with a colleague who you think it will resonate with as well. All right, let’s jump in. Here’s my conversation with Phil Tafian.
Welcome, Phil. So excited to have you on a different practice today.
PHIL: Thank you, Laura. And so excited to be here.
LAUREN: So we heard a little bit about your bio, but I am curious to know, what was the path that led you there? So I wanted to start with, what led you to become Executive Director of the Equal Justice Under the Law?
What twists and turns did life take that got you here? Can you kind of fill us in on your journey so far?
PHIL: Absolutely. Well, for me as a lawyer, it really starts with my mom, who’s also a lawyer. And she is my professional role model. I remember as a [00:06:00] kid, uh, sometimes she’d take me to court or conferences, things like that.
And I always looked up to her as a lawyer and thought, I want to be like that someday. Um, I had no knowledge of what she was talking about or the kinds of law she was doing and so forth. And when I went to law school, um, I think my interest. became a little different than my mom’s. Um, she, she does more family law and I got interested in civil rights, but that’s sort of started me on the path toward the legal profession.
As I mentioned, I was really interested in civil rights during law school. Um, and after a clerkship joined the civil rights division at the U S department of justice. Um, and that was really great work. You know, it’s, um, It’s a large, uh, government agency, obviously, the Department of Justice, um, which exposed me to a lot of really talented and experienced lawyers.
I learned a ton from my mentors, um, at the same time, a large government agency has some drawbacks, including the bureaucracy that can be associated with it. And I think especially for me, you know, sort of [00:07:00] first job and as a civil rights lawyer, so, you know, I wanted to change the world and still want to change the world.
So the bureaucracy ended up being a little taxing on my psyche. And that was really what made me start thinking, um, what else might be out there and The idea of founding a nonprofit sort of came into my mind because, um, you know, there’s a lot of great civil rights organizations, many of which are household names like the ACLU, but I had some friends working at the ACLU who said, Hey, ACLU is a pretty large bureaucracy itself.
Nothing against the great work they’re doing, but rather than joining an existing nonprofit, I thought maybe starting one could help do great work, but also maybe reduce the difficult, uh, the difficulties I was having at the Department of Justice.
LAUREN: Is there a particular reason that you were drawn to opening a non profit versus maybe a traditional for profit law firm that did the same kind of work?
PHIL: You know, at the time, I will say, I was pretty naive. Uh, you [00:08:00] know, let’s see, I only really had one job as a lawyer other than clerking, so not much legal experience. I had served as a director of a homeless shelter before law school, so I had that maybe exposure to the non profit world a little bit.
Honestly, you know, Lawrence, I hate to admit it, but you know, time, uh, you learn so much with time. I think it was more of just an instinct, um, to think non profit. I think both models can work. A huge advantage to the non profit model, assuming the work qualifies, which ours does, Um, because all of our work is pro bono at Equal Justice Under Law.
So, so that’s a big factor. And then we’re also helping, um, honor civil rights, which is another factor. I’m not an expert on the application process, but the work qualifies under IRS guidelines as a nonprofit and getting that status, I think the main sort of difference is it means that individuals can donate to Equal Justice Under Law and get a tax write off, they get a deduction as a charitable contribution.
[00:09:00] Whereas obviously we had found it as a non, as a for profit, there would be no donation sort of tax deductions. On the other side of it, on the for profit side, uh, you know, we do get attorney’s fees for a lot of our work because it’s civil rights and so there’s statutory right to attorney’s fees if we win.And if it had been a for profit model, Um, that money would be treated a little differently. It would go in, in theory to the, you know, the founders or the owners of the organization, which I guess in this case would be me. I don’t, you know, when we win attorney’s fees, I don’t, I don’t take that money. Uh, my salary is set by our board.
I don’t, I don’t even set my own salary. And so there’s no real profits in that sense. Uh, it just goes back into the organization. So two different models. I do think both. could work. And so in retrospect, I have to humbly say it was a little bit of just a naivety, just thinking nonprofit made more sense.
Not to say I have any regrets. It just wasn’t the most thoughtful decision in retrospect. It was kind of a gut reaction or, you [00:10:00] know, just kind of an instinct more than anything else.
LAUREN: But sometimes those decisions and listening to that sort of quiet voice works out great, sort of like, you know, a happy accident sometimes of like, actually, I’m glad I took this road.
PHIL: I think happy accident is really helpful in this case as a phrasing because we have Many, you know, hundreds of donors, people who have found organization, people I’ve never met, I mean, a lot of it’s, you know, friends and family, um, but, but less than half, I would say, the, the vast majority of our donors are, are people I’ve never met in person, who sort of read about our work, feel inspired, and, you know, want to write a check, it might just be 100, I shouldn’t say just, it’s a really, that’s a meaningful amount, but it’s very cool that as a non profit, Our sort of network has a broader reach, um, because people want to connect with us.
And so that has been really nice. It feels like a broader movement rather than just a small team of lawyers trying to do great work. Um, so I think the nonprofit [00:11:00] aspect of it has really helped. The other comment I’ll make about the non profit aspect for me is how it’s affected my approach to the work. I have a salary set by a board.
Rather than being like the owner of a firm, I’m, I’m really an employee. The board sets my salary and decides whether they’re going to keep me on there, whether they’re going to fire me or hire a new executive director. That model. Keeps me motivated to keep doing my best work because I’m reporting to the board multiple times a year about how they’re, how I’m doing, how the organization is doing.
So it’s not like the ownership model you might see in a law firm. So there’s that accountability. And then on the financial side, it removes a lot of the financial incentives for me, which is helpful. I’ve got a salary set by our board. I’m not individually sort of thinking when we file a lawsuit, Oh, will this affect my own personal finances?
Will we get a fee award? It’s sort of separate, which I like. I like being able to approach the cases [00:12:00] just as, you know, evaluating the cases on their own merits and thinking of myself a little bit more as an employee to the board because it sort of divorces the financial motivation from the legal strategy, which has been helpful for me.
I think every lawyer is different, but for me, I like having those separate.
LAUREN: The traditional model in the for profit world. The two biggest challenges that I have heard working with lawyers, I think you just hit on the head, which are one, I got into this profession because I wanted to change the world, or I wanted to help people, but the mechanism in which most of us live That it doesn’t feel the same way, right?
We I can’t. Somebody may think my law firm is great and doing good work, but being able to write a check and support it is not an option for me. So being able to actually feel like a member of the community who is making a difference and being supported by other members of the community, like, right, you don’t hear about it.
that for law firms, like law firms are the worst in the public sector. And [00:13:00] they, for good reason, they earned that reputation. So that’s so nice for the nonprofit world. But also you just talked about is our incentives in the traditional model are misaligned with what our clients are looking for. And yeah, we, a lot of lawyers take cases on how much money is this going to make me?
Oh, maybe I’ll do these extra steps, because why not? It’s more time. And that’s how I, that’s how I make my money. And so having those two challenges removed and really being able to practice on what I think the true nature of the legal profession is, is so refreshing to hear that that actually can exist.
PHIL: It’s so true, Lauren. And what you said is such a great insight. And it reminds me, I really have to give credit to my brother, who’s Definitely not a lawyer. He’s kind of, I don’t know if there’s an opposite of lawyer, but he’s at the other end of the spectrum. If he’s an artist, um, and he’s done a lot of different kinds of art, including photography and film and, and creative writing and things like that.
And he’s older than me. So having an older brother helped in this sense, um, as [00:14:00] an artist. And especially when you think about a photographer, there’s a lot of corporate ways to make money as a photographer. You could, um, you could shoot for like a travel magazine or, you know, like a credit card company.
They always need their photos for their marketing materials. Uh, maybe a smaller level. You could photograph, you know, weddings and other kind of expensive events like by misfits and things like that. There’s ways of quote unquote, selling out as a photographer, just like there is in law lawyers talk about you’re going to sell out and work for the big law firm.
Right? Well, I’m not an artist myself, but sort of seeing my brother think about those career choices. And he, um, I used to talk to him. He really wanted to stay pure. Um, he really didn’t go down the hole, like I’ll photograph weddings or join some corporate magazine thing. He’s really trying to make it. Art, um, and no disrespect to the people who photograph weddings, but I think a lot of them aren’t thinking of it as art so much as ways to pay the bills, which it is a valid way to do it, but it’s probably less of the artistic passion that drives a lot of people into photography.
And so my brother just never [00:15:00] did stuff like that. He wanted to stick with his passion and today he’s that classic starving artist. I mean, unfortunately for him, as a result, he’s, he, he survived, you know, he’s not living in the gutter or anything like that, but he doesn’t, he hasn’t really drawn in the big paychecks that you can do.
Um, when you go a more corporate route and are, and I think that really inspired me and shaped my thinking when we talk about this nonprofit versus for profit, because when you can follow your passion, there’s definitely some costs. I don’t, I don’t feel, uh, I’m not going to complain to the board about my salary.
It’s very generous, but it probably is less than if I had run the organization as a for profit institution. I probably have a little bit less than I’m taking home. I’m totally fine with that because in a sense, you get the benefit of that being able to stay with the passion. And a lot of my classmates from law school who went the more corporate route or joined a big law firm, yes, they’re making higher salaries, but I think even they would say they’re paying for it in a different way because you [00:16:00] have that financial stress.
Um, it becomes less a passion and less, uh, um, we think of law as helping others, but it, It’s a lot less like that for them. So it’s these trade offs that I think every lawyer has to sort of just think about their own personality and their own value system and what would work for each lawyer. For me, I found that being able to separate the financial incentive out has helped me a lot, um, stay fulfilled year after year.
LAUREN: Yeah, it really aligns much more with your purpose and lets you live out that purpose, like you’re saying, than having that tension of, well, I, but I can’t, can I make money doing that? And now I have to go down this path and get further and further away from it.
PHIL: Exactly.
LAUREN: With your wisdom, having traveled down this road some, uh, what are some considerations if somebody is wanting to launch a non profit law firm or provide legal services in that space?
What would you say, with hindsight being 20 20, here’s what I wish I would have told my younger self.
PHIL: It’s so [00:17:00] funny that we just talked about finances because the first question, the first reaction that comes to mind with your question is finances. And, and we do, you know, Equal Justice Center Law has law student interns and a lot of them are interested in thinking like, Oh, well, you know, maybe not right after law school, but I’d like to start a non profit and I fully encourage it.
It’s not one of these, you know, Bad stories where I have regrets. I think it’s been great for me and for the right person, for the right lawyer. I think starting a non profit can absolutely be a great move. The finances come to mind, not personal finances so much as organizational finances, because we’re a small team at Equal to Center Law.
It’s only five employees and that’s basically always been our size now, 10 years running. So it’s never been a large organization. And even as a small team, our budget is around 750, 000, which to me feels like a lot of money to fundraise every year. If you want a larger nonprofit, you know, obviously you can do the math.
It gets to be over a [00:18:00] million and multiple millions of dollars that you have to fundraise. Now, some of that can come in through the cases for attorney’s fees and things like that that we talked about, but the rest is really all. donations and grants. And that, that requires fundraising. Fundraising is not the aspect of the job that I thought about when starting a non profit.
I wanted to be a lawyer and I wanted to be a civil rights lawyer. I wanted to do good and serve justice and help people, um, and that sort of thing. It didn’t even cross my mind. I’d need to be writing letters and making phone calls and having lunch with donors. All things that I, you know, I don’t, I don’t dislike those activities, but it just, that wasn’t part of the plan.
And I’ve started to see if you need to raise 750, 000 a year, you’re going to have to do a lot of that fundraising. There’s definitely authentic ways to do it. I don’t. I don’t want to treat it like a lot of people think of politics as sort of just being so inauthentic and, um, trying to twist people’s arms.
I don’t approach fundraising that way and [00:19:00] you definitely don’t need to, so it’s not as bad as like running for office apparently is. Um, but it is a big part of the job. And so I think anyone thinking about founding a non profit needs to think about, or I would have, I wish I had advised myself to, To be conscious of probably about half your job is going to be non legal work and just kind of making sure the organization is pulling in enough money.
And that is, um, that was a surprise to me, I guess, that I’ve learned over these 10 years.
LAUREN: predominantly you play, or are there other of the five team members who help contribute? But because you’re the face of the organization and the ED, a lot of it falls on your shoulders, it sounds like.
PHIL: Yeah, it’s much more that.
As the executive director, I think that’s always the case. Even in larger non profits, um, there’s no way around it. So certainly early on, when it’s just, you know, yourself or maybe one other employee, you’re doing all of it. And that’s how I was early on. We currently do have a development director [00:20:00] position.
So that’s someone who does a lot of the fundraising work. And then we also have an office manager paralegal position that does helps out a ton with a lot of the administrative side of fundraising, like kind of mailing those letters and things like that. Um, that being said, Small or large in every nonprofit, the face of the organization is going to play a huge role because The donors want to interact with that person.
If it’s a small donor, they want an event occasionally where they can hear from the executive director, giving a speech. If it’s a large donor, they really want FaceTime. They want to sit with you. They want to have lunch or dinner with you. And they’ll want to hear the executive director’s thinking and strategy about the work they’re writing and really big check to support.
And then I’ll say in reverse. As an executive director, you start to develop and I’ve started to develop relationships with our largest donors, where in truth, I really actually want to keep them up to date. It’s not just to receive a check. They start to become real partners in the work. Most of our bigger [00:21:00] donors are not lawyers, so it’s not as if they’re going to strategize on the cases or edit a brief or anything like that.
But. The justice system reform work that we’re doing, they have good insights on, and they’re writing a lot of money and it’s not, I don’t even think it’s that they deserve the time. It’s that they care a lot about it. So why wouldn’t I, as an executor, want to meet with and learn from someone who’s really passionate about our cause?
Um, so it ends up kind of going in both directions, but yes, it also ends up taking quite a bit of time. And I don’t think there’s a, there’s a way around it. And so I think if the interest is, if a lawyer’s interest is being part of a non profit but not sort of doing that fundraising work, I think a staff attorney is really the only way to do it.
Now, I will just add a little asterisk, at most small non profits, the fundraising is being done by everyone, including the staff attorneys. At Equal Justice on the Law, we do not do it that way. We try to, [00:22:00] um, I don’t, I don’t want to say shield because it’s not the worst thing in the world, but we do try to, We don’t put so much of the fundraising on the plate of our staff attorneys because they want to really be doing the legal work, but at other nonprofits, including some I volunteered with, everyone’s doing the fundraising.
Everyone’s going to meet with donors. Occasionally, everyone’s going to try to make some of those phone calls. Sometimes it’s every part of the nonprofit.
LAUREN: I think, yeah, it’s important to know what your role is going to be if you are entering into an existing organization. And if fundraising is not your thing, right, you may, like you said, need to go in that one direction and be just a staff attorney and make sure that even as a staff attorney, that’s not going to be a requirement of you.
Uh, but that’s sort of good to know that it’s a requirement. And I think even from The difference between a nonprofit and for profit is that role that you have, which is so critical. And I think those that [00:23:00] relationship building is always going to be personal. And if you enjoy it, it’s probably a really rewarding part of the job is having these community members that are like partners for you.
But that would never be something Most likely you could outsource. Whereas on the for profit side, I run my finances now. They’re much different, right? I’m not meeting with potential donors, but I could ultimately outsource that. So again, just something for folks to think about is, you know, if you really don’t like that aspect of it, this, this may not be quite the direction you want to go in, or you’ve got to find some folks to put around you to really be able to do that.
Cause you’re right. It’s, it’s It’s not like you do it once. And you’re good. You’re it’s a constant work.
PHIL: Exactly. And I love your point, Lauren, about not being able to outsource it because for so many reasons, you can’t. It just wouldn’t work because it needs to be that personal relationship. But I will say, in terms of someone’s comfort zone, again, happy coincidence.
I’m lucky that there was not an older [00:24:00] version of Phil talking to the younger Phil. Because if I had, Younger Phil might not have wanted to take on a big role in fundraising. It’s not something I had ever done before. But I’m sort of glad I sort of fell into it because having done it for 10 years, I actually do quite like it.
It’s an opportunity to talk about work that I’m passionate about, mostly to non lawyers, which is very different than the courtroom advocacy when you’re arguing with a judge or opposing counsel. You’re making legal arguments, um, but being able to discuss our work to donors in a non legal way is a very important skill that I think shapes the world we live in.
also the courtroom advocacy. I mean, they kind of feed together. The judges, of course, want to hear all those case law citations and things, but it’s also really important to keep in mind that sort of non legal, especially in civil rights, that non legal motivation. Why does this matter? You know, forget about the cases for five seconds.
Why is this important? Um, and so I’m able to do [00:25:00] that more in the donor side. So I’m sort of glad that I didn’t really realize it was such a big part of the job and the lawyers who think it’s not up their alley, the fundraising part. I would recommend, not necessarily just jumping out and starting a non profit, but maybe working in a non profit and getting a little bit of that.
Maybe doing a few phone calls to donors and testing a little bit outside of your comfort zone. Cause it’s not, it’s not as bad as it might sound. It’s not, again, it’s not like, you know, the running for office type of fundraising, which I’ve had friends, you know, I’m, we’re based in Washington, D. C., so that’s why I raised the political analogy.
I’ve had friends run for office and that sounds terrible. To me, awful. Um, I’m sure some people liked it. Um, and I don’t think fundraising is, is quite that, um, kind of dirty. Um, so it’s not, it’s not the worst thing. I think it’s worth getting a little bit outside of the comfort zone if it’s something that, that you might be interested in exploring.
LAUREN: And like you said, you, you may think that it’s not for you and you get in it and you’re like, actually, I kind of like this. I like in my practice, I do a diversification by practice [00:26:00] area. But I think if somebody is like, I really like this one practice area, I don’t want to do something else like civil rights.
I don’t want to pull in bankruptcy just to have my day be a little bit different. But thinking about something like that, of maybe fundraising is the way to diversify your time. So your brain is working in different ways, and you’re not just doing the same thing every single day, which can. become monotonous sometimes, but there are other ways to be a professional in the legal profession.
That’s not only lawyering on cases.
PHIL: I think that’s 100 percent right. And I like the phrasing you use of diversifying your time, because I’m now 16 years into my legal career. And it’s been a fantastic legal career, but I think in part it’s because of that variety of types of work. Uh, I could imagine if a lawyer was just doing one kind of case for many decades, even though you get excellent at it and you develop expertise, that’s a plus, but I could see it Sort of just getting old, really, um, and then it becomes [00:27:00] hard, especially in the legal profession, people get pigeonholed both by, um, clients, but also by other employers.
So if you’ve been doing, you know, a particular line of work, maybe, um, say, disability or trust in estates or social security, whatever kind of work you develop your expertise, it’s really hard after 10 years to suddenly try a new line of work, you know, a lot of, um, Firms aren’t going to want to hire you. I mean, you sort of specialize and so you’ve got to think creatively if, if variety matters, which it does to me, um, keeping that mind sharp, keeping that mind stimulated and try new things that matters to me.
So you’ve got to think about other ways to add that diversity of work and that variety of work into your portfolio because it’s very hard to just jump from one field to another in the law.
LAUREN: Yeah, we’re, we’re old school in a lot of ways. And I think that’s, that’s one of the negatives to it for your organization and maybe even just some others that you’ve talked to, I’m sure there’s other eds that y’all are in the same space.
What are [00:28:00] some of the success stories that you’ve seen and the lessons you’ve pulled maybe from others that you’ve really said, man, you know, this organization doing this. They are killing it in this aspect. I might, you know, steal some ideas or at least learn this is how you really do run a non profit law firm in a really successful way.
PHIL: The first thing that comes to mind for me is the wisdom that we all hear in law school of how much of the legal profession is networking. That’s so true across the board, including in the non profit space. And just like you were saying, Lauren, absolutely. Executive directors of non profits in a, in a given city.
And it’s true here where I work, we’re constantly trying to get ideas from each other. The ideas are often great, but I’m moving away from the actual content of those discussions and more to the process of those relationships that you form with peers, the networking, It’s equally important in the nonprofit as it would be in the for profit.
It’s not, and it’s not just for your [00:29:00] next job. It’s not because of climbing a ladder the way we typically think of networking is it opens doors to future jobs. It strengthens your ability in a nonprofit space to do your job better because, you know, most nonprofits are fighting uphill battles. That’s kind of why we exist.
Um, it’s, it’s to improve some area of society or some area of the legal system or whatever it may be. It’s generally fighting an uphill battle, which can be. A lonely and sometimes demoralizing experience. You know, you’re gonna, you’re gonna lose a lot of cases, your clients are going to be going through some kind of travesty of whatever, you know, whatever the issue is that you work on.
So the nonprofit space really requires a community. You’re not doing it alone. Um, it’s in my mind, it’s really not that sort of Lone Ranger, David versus Goliath thing. You’re not just out there by yourself with a, with a slingshot, trying to tape on giant, or at least that’s not how I think of successful nonprofit lawyers being, it is working in community with other organizations.
And [00:30:00] supporting each other. And as cheesy as it sounds, sometimes emotionally supporting each other. You know, when there’s a big case that you’ve lost, you know, you’ve got your family, you’ve got your actual social support groups, but other nonprofits, I think play a big role in sort of keeping that hope alive, keeping the fight going, there’s going to be a lot of setbacks.
That’s just the nature of nonprofit work. So that’s the biggest lesson I’ve heard. I’ve learned is that you I kind of thought of networking more as a for profit thing, but it’s really, I think, in all areas of law. And hey, for all I know, it’s in all other industries too, but that wisdom I think we heard in law school, I heard from a lot of advisors, is networking is key.
I think it’s really true in the non profit space as well.
LAUREN: Creating that community and having work that is deeply aligned with your purpose is what I’m hearing you talk about so far, so I feel like this already answers my next question, but I’m curious to hear your take and flesh it out a little bit about Thank you.
How you can, how lawyers can create a work life [00:31:00] balance, which is so tricky for us. We very much get the badge of burnout as like a positive thing in our profession. I’m too busy, right to do anything. I’ll get to you in three weeks. That seems to be almost a rite of passage. And we use that as a measure of success when we’re talking to colleagues.
And I think that’s, I don’t want to be, that’s not the club I want to be in, but I’m hearing from you just in your work work. Like, again, aligned with your purpose, there’s a community, which I think is so important, to call someone up and go, dang it, I lost that Kate, you know, like have that moment with somebody.
Being able to have, uh, work that you’re really passionate about. How do you create a work life balance? Are there particular things that you do or do you find that being in this space actually kind of naturally Helps do that.
PHIL: I think both certainly the points you may be being able to do work that I’m passionate about absolutely helps because you know, literally this weekend.
I have a little bit of work to do. It’s not a it’s not a negative. [00:32:00] I’m actually happy to do it. It’s it’s Part of what I’d like to make, you know, a small part of my weekend. It’s not gonna be the whole weekend at all, but I like my job. When I go on vacation, I frequently say, I’m looking forward to getting back to work.
And it’s not, it’s not a joke. It’s not sarcastic. I actually am looking forward to work. So the passion absolutely helps. There’s a couple other things that I adopted early on as a lawyer that I think have really helped me. One is. Speaking the work life balance, and I’m a firm believer, at least for my own psychology, and I think this might work for other lawyers, is how you speak ends up shaping your feelings just as much as the reverse.
And so I do not, when people ask me, how are you, I don’t do the classic lawyer thing. Oh man, I’m so busy. It’s an easy thing to say. It’s often true. I never say it. I don’t complain or kind of give this sense of I’m just swank at work. Even when it’s true, I try to answer those questions in a different way.
If it’s about work, I might say, you [00:33:00] know, we’ve got this really exciting case that I’m working on. So instead of highlighting it’s busy, it’s more the excitement of what I’m working on. But more often I try to think about the other parts of my life. When someone says, how are you? I might talk about my family life, I might talk about my wonderful pets, I might talk about a vacation I took, a new pair of shoes that I just bought that I’m excited about, whatever small little thing I can.
And to resist, it’s so common for us to just think, oh man, I’m snowed under, I’m so swamped. So just by avoiding speaking that way, and I’ve done that very intentionally for me, um, Transcribed by https: otter. ai It’s helped me maintain that work life balance, in part because I know I’ve got to have an answer to the question that’s not just, I’m busy at work.
I want to be able to talk about, you know, that interest of mine or that hobby of mine or, or, you know, again, you know, the pets or whatever it is. So I think that’s one thing. And the other thing is, I think lawyers, The profession is built on integrity. We have an obligation of confidentiality to our clients, of candor and honesty to courts and things of this [00:34:00] sort.
So integrity is a big part of the profession. And I try to apply a lot of those lessons in my personal life. So if I make dinner plans with a friend or family member, even when the work calls for it, I, for whatever reason, I’ve just decided early on in my career, I’m not going to cancel those. I’ve got to eat.
It might be a fast dinner. I might have to, I might have to say, Hey, instead of meeting close to where you live, can, can we meet by my office? We’re still meeting, but, um, I’ve got, you know, this deadline that I got to meet tonight. Let’s, let’s have a quick dinner by my office. I just try not to cancel on even social commitments, and I found that that Self imposed integrity has also forced that work life balance because I do have friends who are lawyers who are happy to cancel And I don’t hold it against them, and I don’t judge them.
I absolutely understand when the work comes first, but for myself I just try to insist you’re gonna still have to eat dinner like don’t skip dinner So you got to eat if you made plans with a friend Do everything in my power to make it happen. Maybe if it’s a change of [00:35:00] location or whatever, um, rather than canceling.
And that’s that boundary on do I let my job overtake my whole social life. By setting that boundary, it’s also helped reinforce that work life balance.
LAUREN: It brings the humanity back into the profession, I think. Like, it reminds us that we are not only lawyers. Like, our whole existence is not just the job we do, but we have all these different facets and all these different relationships in our lives.
And so, I love the idea of taking the core principles that We so strongly adhere to in the profession, but not letting them limit us to, well, I’m only going to have integrity. I’m going to stick to my deadlines for work. I do this with like, I’m going to the gym this afternoon. That’s a date with myself and I’m not going to cancel because, you know, whatever came up, can I do it later?
Or is it really that much of an emergency, right? I don’t know if you get clients who like, This isn’t really an emergency. Like I know it’s important to you, but I’m still going to go [00:36:00] to the gym. So I love that idea of how can we apply the principles we so love in the profession to the rest of our lives because we are multifaceted beings.
PHIL: Yep. I have another rule, Lauren, I want to share with listeners is that I have no internet in my apartment. So those emails you get from opposing counsel. Yeah. And I also don’t have a smartphone. So when I get home, it’s family time. You know, I live with a life partner and, um, we have, we have pets, no children, but that’s the family.
And so there’s no TV, there’s no screens, really. When I think about it at all, there’s no, you know, uh, we’re just together and it’s really wonderful. And thankfully she’s a non lawyer, which I actually, which I really appreciate. I’ve, I’ve definitely lived with and dated lawyers and You know, nothing, nothing wrong with lawyers.
I really admire the profession, but it’s, it’s very lucky for me to be in a life partnership with a non lawyer because we don’t [00:37:00] always just talk about the law. Um, we talk about what’s going on in our lives, but that little trick of avoiding, you know, TV and internet at home is a really nice for that work life balance, because like you said about emergencies, despite what your clients or opposing counsel might think, It’s almost never that a matter cannot be picked up at 9 a.
m. the next morning. Maybe if you’re doing like death row appeals, maybe I haven’t been in that line of work, but I just think it’s really rare that there is, you know, let’s just face it, we’re not medical doctors. You know, it’s like, it’s not, it’s not like our clients are literally bleeding. And again, if that’s your work, I don’t, I don’t, it’s not my work anyway.
It’s important work. I really value my work, but it’s really rare that it can’t be picked up at 9am the next day. And so I sort of just take that and, and I’ll say this with my coworkers. I think they really appreciate it. They’re not getting emails from their boss at 11pm at night. They don’t have to check their email as much either.
Yeah. [00:38:00] Even though I think they probably are online more frequent than I am, it sort of helps everyone breathe a little bit. I feel like an email from your boss can be intimidating, especially when it comes late at night. They don’t get that from me. So we really try to create a culture here where there’s a work life balance, where we honor people’s family and vacation time and things like that.
And I think that helps a lot with the team dynamic here.
LAUREN: Absolutely. That your apartment sounds magical. I cannot believe you do not have internet, like at all, like that just blows my mind, but honestly 30 years ago that was like totally normal.
PHIL: That’s how life was, well and that’s the home I grew up in, you know, so I’m 41 years old and so growing up in my house in Sacramento we never had internet, it was, I mean we did have TV I will say, um, so, so that was a difference, but we did have a lot of family dinners and things like that, that probably shaped my outlook on this.
It does require you to choose well in your dating life, you’ve got to have a partner that you actually want to talk with. for multiple hours a night instead of turning on that TV or watching that movie. I [00:39:00] mean, I’m very lucky that we have a good, good, uh, conversation foundation or a relationship. And so we’re not trying to avoid each other.
Um, and that helps a lot too.
LAUREN: Yeah. And even if someone, you know, maybe can’t totally unplug, which I can get, I think I would even struggle with that. I think it’s such a good inspiration to do a self assessment of like how much. Am I working at home? And do I want to do that? And if you really don’t, you know, is there a thing where you can three hours before bed, put your phone away?
Maybe, right, you have internet in the house and you have TV, but it’s like that active intentional action of, I don’t want to be tied to this 24 seven. So what can I do to really create that separation?
PHIL: I think there’s a few things, I’m glad you stayed on this topic, Lauren, because there’s a few things I’ve seen friends do.
I don’t think I know anyone who doesn’t have internet at home, but um, I’ve seen a couple things. One is to set some time, a few hours before bed, no, no email, don’t even check. Um, and, and supposedly there’s some science out there that actually helps with the [00:40:00] circadian rhythm, like the Maybe reducing that screen time before bed can help with better sleep or, or whatever.
But even if independent, it definitely helps with the work life balance. And then I would suggest the same on the other end. When you wake up, have at least an hour without checking your email. It doesn’t need to be the first thing. A lot of people get in the habit, I think because maybe their alarm is on their phone.
They get in the habit of, you know, turning off the alarm and checking the email. But again, it’s It’s rare that you’re going to have an emergency happen overnight. Wait until you get into the office, or at least until you’ve showered and brushed your teeth, then you can check your email, you know, maybe, maybe before you commute or whatever.
So those are two things. And then the other thing that I think comes from a lot of family traditions is dinner time, at least maybe during dinner time. Put the phones away, put them upstairs, not in your pocket, but somewhere else, so that it can be family time for dinner. There’s just a few different things that can be relatively small, but can really help for that mental health, that work life balance, where you don’t feel like every single text or email needs to be looked at at that same moment.[00:41:00]
LAUREN: I always do a check for myself, and it’s a little bit morbid, but I think of like, at the end of my life, if I’m like, if I just feel like I’m not in a good groove, like I’ve gotten off, I’ll think, am I gonna think, man, I really wish I checked my emails more? Or am I going to wish that I had my family dinner with my kids, or I took, you know, my daughter roller skating on a random Friday.
That’s oh, that check always like really resonates with me of like, no, I’m not going to worry about the emails. I’m going to take this time because that’s at the end of the day, what matters to me and everybody’s got to find their own, but I’m going to guess email checking is not on anyone’s top list.
PHIL: I think that’s right.
And the less morbid way that I think about it is you think about how much time you devote to your work, which I don’t criticize. It’s good. It’s 40 plus hours a week for a lot of lawyers. And you think about how much time you spend sleeping. Also, please don’t cut and do, you know, get your whatever you need, eight hours a night or whatever it is.
But when you take away your job commitment and you’re sleeping, In a [00:42:00] 168 hour week, it actually doesn’t leave that much time. It’s probably about 100 hours right out of that 168 when you’re either working or sleeping. And if you add sort of the hygiene, the morning routine, the showering or whatever, it’s even more.
You end up seeing that just a few basic commitments, like showering, work, and sleep, take up the vast majority of the hours per week, leaving Maybe 40 or 50 left for your loved ones, for your friends, for your family. But those people are so important to us, right? Like we, especially if it’s a spouse or a life partner, like, the people we’ve chosen to bring into our lives are immensely important, and we don’t nearly have enough time to spend with them.
And so that’s why in our home, Evening time is purely family time. It’s like, do we need to do even more work given how much it’s taking out of our week? And so that’s, that’s the way it’s similar to kind of looking back on your life. But it’s that model of, we want to make sure we don’t lose all of our time.
You know, we [00:43:00] don’t totally ignore the people that we’ve chosen to make most important in our life. There’s got to be a healthy amount of space for that part of things too.
LAUREN: No, I love that perspective. And I’ve loved, loved this conversation. I think it’s been one of my favorite ones so far. So thank you, Phil.
I always end, especially when chatting with lawyers, because I think, again, the, the narrative around success has been very narrowed, at least That’s been my experience. What I heard in law school, what I hear with a lot of colleagues is there’s just sort of this one box, like if you check this box, you’re successful.
And I don’t think that’s how it should be. So I would love to hear you share with our listeners, what your definition is of success, and I’m. I’m not going to put any pressure on you, but I feel like it’s going to be great. Just face this conversation.
PHIL: Well, I’ll just say, I think for me, it’s evolved. And so I appreciate the question because again, 16 years into my career, it’s a little different than what I would have thought when I started out.
And I think there’s a few themes that come to mind. One is. I’m a client [00:44:00] focused lawyer. So the clients can help define success. If you’ve done right by your client, even though you’ve lost the case, if you were there for them, if you communicated well, if they’re grateful for the work that you’ve put in, to me in that case, that counts as success in an individual case, doing right by your client.
The big picture for me, it’s about sustainability. Again, you know. As short as life is, the career can feel quite long. You know, I’m only 16 years into what I hope is a 30, 40, 50 year long career if my health sustains it. And so a successful legal career is one to me that I can sustain in terms of that mental health.
One that keeps me fulfilled, one that keeps me wanting to go back to work every day, every week, every year. And I think that varies wildly depending on personality. For me, it’s been this ingredient, these ingredients that we’ve talked about. Finding work that I’m passionate about. Separating out the financial incentives from the actual work.
That’s been really helpful to me. Working on a small team. Actually, the [00:45:00] size really matters. Working on a team where I have that family feel, these are little details that have mattered to me, but other people might feel completely different. They might want to be part of a large organization, or they might want to be doing a totally different kind of work, or they may want work that there may be.
I could imagine that maybe they’re less passionate about because they don’t want it to be something they continually think about or sleep over maybe. I mean, it maybe depends on the individual personality. So I think I’m going to stay agnostic about what works for each lawyer, but make that version of success.
If you feel renewed every day, every week, every year, if you feel like you can sustain that work over a long multi decade career, then you’ve, you’ve had a successful career. Um, and you’ve made a difference to the legal profession. I, I, I think the, the failure, the non success is all the lawyers who when they meet a college kid or someone who says, I want to be a lawyer someday, they say, no, don’t do it.
I feel so bad when I hear that. You should hopefully enjoy your career enough that when you meet a teenager or college, you know, an [00:46:00] undergraduate who says they want to be a lawyer, you say, I fully support it. It’s been a great career for me and I hope it’s a great career for you too. So whatever you need to do to kind of adopt that positive outlook, I think put those pieces in place and hopefully have a long and great career as a lawyer.
LAUREN: Absolutely. My other pet peeve is recovering lawyer, which I think is along the same lines. I’m like, I don’t like that. I don’t like that narrative out there. It’s
PHIL: indicative that so many lawyers, you know, really don’t like their job, but there’s things we can do to make it more satisfying, I think.
LAUREN: Yes, I think having folks like you out there and I’m so appreciative of you taking time to share your story really help us see that there it is lovely and we can really have rewarding careers.
And there are folks who can kind of show us the way and give us some of these tips that we can incorporate into our own lives and our own practice. So I’m so grateful for all of your wisdom today. so much for sharing.
PHIL: Thank you, Lauren. It’s been wonderful talking with you.
LAUREN: And if anyone wants to get a hold of you or learn more about your organization, what’s the best way that they can do that?
PHIL: I think [00:47:00] our website. It’s just equaljusticeunderlaw. org. And actually, you could just do an internet search for Equal Justice Under Law and we’ll be the first hit.
LAUREN: Perfect. Thanks so much, Phil. This was so lovely and inspiring.
PHIL: Thank you, Lauren. I’m
LAUREN: over here giving you a virtual high five because you just finished another episode of A Different Practice.
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